Was there really a Custer Treasure?

 

Old friends from their days working together at WCCO television in Minneapolis, former long-time anchorman Don Shelby, and Director of the Custer episode, Raul Cadena, pose for a photo.  Raul also played the cigarette smoking thief in the reenactment at Two Moons monument. 

Two local native actors who played roles in the massacre reenactment pose for a photo with Scott.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't either of these guys who "killed" me during the battle.

In a "period" looking photo, Sargent John Slatton and Scott pose for photo on their horses.

Ross Mitchell and John Slatton led me and my horse "Trinity" across a ridge at the Little Bighorn battlefield in the late afternoon of a gorgeous late June day. 

I'd like to start by saying this episode was the most fun I've had on a shoot to date.  Not only did I get to participate and get "killed" in the exciting Little Bighorn massacre reenactment, but I was also allowed to ride over the entire battlefield on horseback for three hours discussing various tactical maneuvers that likely happened that day with men who served in our nation's military who knew what they were talking about.  In fact, all of the cavalry soldiers who appeared in the show are currently enlisted in various branches of the military or are veterans who served our country.  They were all extremely knowledgeable, skilled soldiers who knew how to ride, as well as helpful and friendly to the host of the show (me) who didn't have a clue what he was doing most of the time.  It's because of people like these guys who served and continue to serve in the military with honor and distinction that allows guys like me to run around playing Indiana Jones.  We all have to keep that in mind and be grateful for the freedom we enjoy.  I certainly am.

One thing became abundantly clear to me during my conversations with the cavalry guys that was not made clear in the show, and that was there was no Custer "treasure" in the form of gold and/or silver.  The pay wagon was with Reno who pulled back and wasn't part of the Little Bighorn battle.  Therefore, the only thing that could have been salvaged from the dead soldiers by the natives was personal items and paper currency.  However, the natives considered currency to be "Picture paper" and thus was meaningless to them.  I spoke to some of the native actors in the reenactment who were direct descendants of those who fought in the battle with Custer and they said the paper money taken from the dead soldiers, "Was given to the children who threw it up into the air and watched it blow away in the wind."  Besides, what would the natives do with paper money?  Walk into a grocery store and spend it?  Hardly.

So that begs the question, if there wasn't a Custer treasure, what was the treasure that Two Moons 'treasure map' reportedly led to?  What makes sense to me is there was a lot of gold miners prospecting in Montana at that time who were frequently moving across the state.  No doubt many of them were robbed of their gold by natives who at some point, realized it had value to the White Man.  I suspect that is what comprises Two Moons treasure since it couldn't realistically be anything tied to Custer.  Unfortunately, since the treasure map was stolen around 1960, we likely will never know what Two Moon's treasure actually was.  As we said in the show, it was either found half a century ago by whoever stole the map, or it is still out there. 

UPDATE: 12-9-14

Today I received a note from one of our guests on the show, David Meyer, that he had received a rash of emails from people chastising him for being involved in a "fake" episode.  It turns out there are non-serious debunkers who consistently take anything they can from our shows, and apparently this blog, and twist it out of proportion to create controversy and drive people to their own blogs.  I've said it many times before that if debunkers were really serious about the subject matter that appears on our show, they'd ask me about it directly instead of creating deliberate fabrications to drive people to their sites.
 

The issue appears to be my statement about a pay wagon, possibly filled with gold and silver, not being at the battle to have been recovered by the natives.  David said people were arguing that a pay wagon wasn't with Reno or anywhere near the battlefield.  I could very well be wrong about Reno having a pay wagon at all since I was going on what I recalled from my conversations.  I don't remember exactly.  In any case, whether Reno had a pay wagon or not is secondary to the point that there was no pay wagon with Custer.  Therefore, there couldn't have been a substantial hoard of gold and silver that could qualify as a "treasure."

 

I came to my own conclusion as we were filming there was no significant treasure beyond personal items, weapons, and paper money which would have been useless to the natives.  There was nothing preconceived about this treasure before filming the episode as apparently has been suggested.  My opinions were reached after talking with the cavalry personnel and the descendants of the Cheyenne who fought in the original battle while I was there.  

Did we play up my involvement in the reenactment to create drama?  Of course, but immersing myself into the action helped me better understand and appreciate what happened that day and put additional context on the questions we were investigating.  Nothing was faked, other than our deaths as member of the ill-fated members of Custer's troops.  My advice to anyone with a question about any of our episodes is to ask me directly on this blog.

 

ADDITIONAL UPDATE 12-10-14 

I received two emails from people who shared very interesting memories that are germane to our "Custer Treasure" episode.  I have no reason to suspect these people are not telling the truth.  While these revelations are not 100% conclusive, as far as I'm concerned all my questions are answered with regard to what the natives did with the personal items and weapons taken by the women after the battle, and as to what happened to two Moons treasure.  My thanks go out both people who contacted me for sharing their stories.

 

"Hello Scott,

 

I watched your episode last night on the "Custer Blood Treasure" with great interest. I knew W. P. Moncure very well !!

W.P. Moncure, Walker Peyton Moncure, was my paternal grandmother's uncle. She raised me from 6 months until I went away to nursing school at 17. "Moncure" as we called him, was married to Anna Otoupalik in 1903 in Butte, MT. Her sister, Venus Otoupalik-Nedved, was my grandmother's mother. They all lived in Butte, MT where my grandmother was born in 1892. She died in 1968 and Moncure died in 1964. He was repairing his roof in Calabasas at age 88, fell of the roof, broke his hip, and died as a result of complications. He was a very "wiry" little man. And boy, could he tell the stories !! He was born in 1877 in Maryland and came from a prominent family in Virginia. In fact, his father was a doctor to General Robert E. Lee.

Moncure lived in Calabasas, CA. We lived in Portland, OR, as I still do. I am a very young 71 years old. Every year he went to the Yellowstone to stay the summer until the year before he died.. On his way he would come to our house and stay 5-7 days with us. Then on his way back to CA he would come to stay with us again for another week. He always brought me a one pound box of See's chocolates from CA every year.

He owned the Indian Trading Post in Busby, MT for many years. My grandfather that raised me worked for him there and was also the Postmaster there for 15 years on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. Then my grandparents went over to the Crow Reservation and were there for 2 years before finally coming to Portland in 1928. My grandfather was the Postmaster there, and owned the store there at Crow Agency.

Of course we always knew about the Two Moons Monument that he erected. He would talk about it at times. He said he erected it for the benefit of the Cheyenne and that the "treasure" would one day greatly benefit the future tribe. He and Two Moons WERE good friends. My grandparents knew Two Moons, also, since they were right there, also. My grandmother was a wonderful artist and we had the huge oil painting of Two Moons she had painted before he died. Full headdress and all. We knew what all was contained in the monument. But he would not tell where the "treasure" was buried. So yes, it was not a myth !!!  It was REAL !!!

I have magazine articles and newspaper articles about it. One very long news article you should have known about is this. In 1957 Moncure turned over the care, responsibility, and permanent custody of the monument and all its contents to the Northern Cheyenne Indian Tribe committee. This group consisted of 9 members who Moncure helped pick. And shortly after this, the monument was "broken" into and the manila envelope was gone.

Now, after the tribe had control over the monument, do you really think they were going to leave that map there for some white man to get their hands on?  After this Moncure would always say, "No one has to worry about the wrong people getting possession of what belongs to the Indians."  The opening that was supposed to take place in 1976, 100 years after Custer's Last Stand", NOT 1986, was just done earlier because of the interest that had developed after Kathryn Wright's article. 

Also, Moncure and his wife, Anna, bought 1100 acres of land between 1915 to 1936 in the area and donated all the land to the Cheyenne.

The money paid to the massacred soldiers was not gold and silver coins. It was in the form of gold and silver treasury notes. Paper !  So all those gold coins in the rusty cans buried and found by that couple have nothing to do with the "Custer treasure".

I am going to make copies of the articles and some photos of he and Anna. I am going to send all of it to you at your company, American Petrographic Services in St. Paul, MN. I hope you read all the articles and also take all that I have told you in truth seriously. I have no reasons to lead you on about this matter. There is no "treasure" to be pursued and found. You might want to pass this information on to the man in the coin store and the other young guy on the show before you went to Montana."

Here is the second message that's also listed below:

"I remember years ago, when my grandfather was alive, he spoke about a time when his grandfather's grandfather was in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. After the battle, Sitting Bull and his people went north towards Canada, Crazy Horse and his people went south. This band came to The Stronghold, located in the Badlands of South Dakota - there Crazy Horse told his people to gather together all that they had taken from the battle field. After gathering all the items, he divided the items onto four buffalo hides and told four of his best warriors to ride in each direction (east, south, west and north), a day's ride and bury the items. My grandfather was told that there were numerous items which included coins, rifles, sabers, clothing, buttons and anything the women had found. This is a story that very few people know about. Those that did know have since passed on. I consider myself lucky to hear stories like the ones my grandfather used to tell. I thought this might be of interest to you after I watched the episode of the battle. I also find your shows very interesting. Thank you."