A second cluster of carvings is found roughly four feet to the lower right of the main group (red boxed area) of carvings Janet Wolter is pointing to.
The second cluster includes two carvings with loops and curved lines at the top and the apparent numbers '06' and '07' below.
A closer view of the carvings on top show what appears to be an "S" lying sideways to the right and a pair of "fish" symbols carved as a single continuous line on the left.
The second cluster of carvings includes two symbols with curved lines above what appears to be the numbers '06' and '07' close to the ground. What caught my attention was the strange symbol with twin loops carved with a single continuous line. While surfing the web looking for Hooked X symbols in the signatures of famous explorers, one in particular jumped out. Juan Ponce de Leon (1474-1521) was a Spanish explorer known to have visited the shores of what is now known as Florida while searching for the "Fountain of Youth." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Ponce_de_Leon
While there is no known record of the famous explorer ever sailing as far north as Nova Scotia, but that doesn't mean he could not have. The symbol circled in the image of Juan Ponce de Leon's signature below is the reason I bring up the possibility. The "de" in de Leon's signature is strikingly familiar to the double looped carving on the Overton Stone. The only meaningful difference between the two symbols is the bottom end of the carved line on the far right bends to the left instead of the right.
The "de" in the signature of Juan Ponce de Leon (circled in red) looks strikingly similar to the double looped carving on the Overton Stone.
The most likely timeline for what could have been a secret voyage to Nova Scotia are between 1493, when he traveled to the Caribbean as a crew member on Columbus' second voyage, and 1503. The second would have been sometime after 1513. While many of his expeditions are well documented with no mention of his traveling as far north as Nova Scotia, there are significant gaps in the records that could have made such a trip possible. The other problem with Juan Ponce de Leon, who was known to have been very violent to the natives in the Caribbean, and the Overton Stone, is the carvings suggest some kind of agreement or strategic alliance with the local indigenous people. This would be at odds with his known behavior. However, if he had been in Nova Scotia with a small contingent so far from home, his attitude toward the natives may have been different.
Regardless, the striking similarity of the two symbols and a possible connection to the famous Spanish explorer begs the question to be asked. What do you think?
The Spanish Explorer Juan Ponce de Leon is credited with the discovery of what is now known as Florida during his search for the "Fountain of Youth."
Scott,
ReplyDeleteWhen I first saw these symbols in the link provided by Pasadena, my first impression was fishing symbols. I've seen both of these symbols somewhere before and cannot remember where. The sideways S appears strikingly similar to a fish hook. If I remember correctly, these hooks were native and made from bone.
Looking at the signature, I see what certainly appears to be one of the leaves from the Overton Stone, whether it's tobacco or corn is still debatable.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteI have to say I'm not persuaded by the fishing symbols argument. It seems a bit trivial as to both the natives and all explorers of the day fishing was an everyday thing.
Another thing I see in Juan Ponce de Leon's signature are the symbolic twin pillars of Freemasonry which originate from the twin obelisks that stood outside the entrance to the Temples in Egypt.
I see the pillars too. Along with the corresponding spiraling around both of them.
DeleteI also see a motif strikingly similar to something found carved in stone at Newgrange. Turn his portrait upside down, and take a look at his sleeve and shoulder.
I'm also detecting a John the Baptist influence.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteI think what we both see clearly is a Masonic influence of a person who was initiated. If he was part of a Templar order then you can be sure there was a John the Baptist influence.
Where your wife is resting her hand on the stone in the picture, has part of the carving been removed, or damaged?
ReplyDeleteAnthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteNo, it was an area that was less weathered than the lighter areas. It may have naturally spalled off in the recent past, but nothing that resembled vandalism or recently man made.
In the link provided by Pasadena, the stone was damp and more symbols seem to appear. There appears to be a circle, or some sort of solar symbol near the bottom. Is this just a trick of light, or is something else there? I also noticed 2 more "dots" above the cross.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteI did not see anything else man made beyond the carvings and symbols we've discussed. I could be wrong, but I looked pretty carefully. The surface of stone was hardly uniform in color, texture, fracturing, etc., and it could indeed be the play of light on uneven natural features.
Thank you Scott,
DeleteI wanted to ask those questions on the last blog thread but, the trolls got in the way. Amazing how one can lose his train of thought when someone else makes an asinine statement.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteI'm filtering out the unproductive troll comments more than ever now. Fair criticism is fine; stupid stuff is not.
What you propose does make sense. Did people from that era use two digit year numbers? I can understand it if it means 1506 and 1507. If they did, your assertion would be spot on.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, I love your work and I miss the show. Always thought provoking and intelligent.
Moses Ferreira
Moses,
DeleteI know I use only two numbers most of the time when making a date. I suspect they did at times too, but not sure if this is what is going one here. I've also heard the idea these numbers could be coordinates.
Glad you enjoyed the show. Hopefully, we'll have more coming soon for you to contemplate!
Interesting, when I was in St. Augistine, Florida I noticed paintings with the familiar M hand sign with a skull sitting on a table. The stone cross at the entrance to the fountain of youth springs is interesting. Supposedly built made by Ponce DE leon.
ReplyDeleteMatt,
DeleteThe skull is interesting; JB perhaps? I'll have to check that out someday.
Scott great pictures! I got interested in the overton stone while watching oak island. They also thought there were two different cultures on display. Love to see if this was actually Juan. Cant wait for your show, my dvr is full and now im viewing on youtube. Best wishes Bryan from WV
ReplyDeleteI have to say I think you are reaching here Scott.
ReplyDeleteJuan Ponce de Leon would translate to Juan Ponce Of/from Leon. I cannot see anyone using the word "of" as an Identifying signature. There have been probably millions of Spanish speaking people using de in their names. It would be like a Scotsman signing Mac and expecting you to know exactly who he is.
Anonymous,
DeleteI don't think I'm reaching at all; just look at the carved symbol and the symbol in the signature that is unique to him. I understand what you're saying, but it's the symbol that could be the link to Juan Ponce de Leon. I realize it doesn't prove it definitively, but it's very compelling none the less.
Taken as a whole, his signature is unique,the de part not so much. You yourself noted the difference from it to the carving. Compelling ? Not really.
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteWe'll just have to agree to disagree on the compelling part. Thanks.
Could it be said that many men of a certain time period used the prefix 'de' , generally meaning 'of'?
DeleteAnonymous,
DeleteOf course, but that has nothing to do with the point I’m making here. The symbol made in the “de” portion of Juan Ponce de Leon’s signature is unique to him and closely matches the carving on the Overton Stone.
That is the only point being point here, but then I’m sure you already know that.
However, here is another example of his signature which is quite different from the one you show and does not show the same symbol that you claim to be unique to him.
Deletehttps://books.google.ca/books?id=JcDGZgKtWG4C&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=ponce+de+leon+signature&source=bl&ots=BMr9i2k5Dm&sig=Ah1usTRd3U126MaGoZH6zXiUZZk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGj_T15JfXAhVGyoMKHarfDg84ChDoAQgoMAE#v=onepage&q=ponce%20de%20leon%20signature&f=false
Anonymous,
DeleteI don’t agree that example is different at all; in fact it is the same. The “de” portion is slightly different, but essentially the same.
Swing and miss I’m afraid.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI believe you have found the man's signature. The second part is of an astronomical nature. The sideways s appears to be the ecliptic. There appears to be a small bar protruding from the middle of this s. Regulus is situated almost exactly in the ecliptic. As I'm sure you're aware, Regulus is part of the constellation of Leo. According to a Central American I work with, who has the last name of Deleon, it means "The Lion". Therefore this could possibly be his name in code.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteRegardless of who carved the inscription, the idea the carvings are related to astronomy in some capacity is highly likely. That there is coded information within the lower carvings makes even more sense.
Good stuff!
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI forgot to mention an important part of my theory. 06 and 07 are the two months most important to the constellation of Leo. See: "Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy" R.H. Brown
pages 26-27 and 46
Anthony Warren
Nice job on this. Your identifying the close similarities was good work. It certainly raises an intriguing possibility. There were quite a few explorers, especially post-Columbus, that were making landfall in North America along the eastern seaboard. Ships needed provisioning (wood, fresh water, supplemental food stores) and fish needed to be dried. These short-natured provisioning landfalls rarely, if ever, made it into the accounts. West of the present-day 60 W longitude (Greenwich) was Spanish Territory by virtue of the 1494 Treaty of Tordesillas (and its Demarcation Line established post-1495). Nice article, Scott.
ReplyDeletePatrick,
DeletePerhaps the unavoidable need of supplies for sustenance might be the reason the explorer, whoever it was, went to the effort to form an alliance with the indigenous people. There are all kinds of scenarios that could be connected to the carvings and the situation could have been more dire than we realize.
Fun to speculate about all of this; especially the fact it was Spanish territory during Juan Ponce de Leon's time. I would say that raises his stock a bit don't you think?
Patrick,
ReplyDeleteHow is Regulus useful for determining longitude?
"Regulus is a very bright star and is situated almost exactly in the ecliptic. It is, therefore of great use to Navigators in determining the longitude at sea." Stellar Theology and Masonic Astronomy, R. H. Brown(page 27)
Anthony Warren
Page 26
DeleteMy bad.
Anthony Warren
Scott, maritime boating uses strong hemp ropes for anchors and tying the ship to docks. It seems possible to me that instead of writing a memo about his adventure, de Leon used a symbol of a rope thrown out to represent a landing in which either the ship was tied to a stationary object or and anchor was put down, indicating harbor.
ReplyDeleteKevin,
DeleteNot sure the rope theory makes sense to me. They would have needed a rope over 2000 feet long to tie up to that rock which is set too far off shore for that purpose.
There is a harbor in the area, but it's a at least a couple of miles away.
Here's another related subject. Josh Gates traveled to Spain to board a ship built by a local shipbuilder to replicate that of Columbus on his voyages. In his episode he boards the ship and climnbs the mast to the eagles nest. To me the ship seemed much smaller than I would have imagined from historic drawing. Crew men could easily jump into shallow water from this ship, and use hemp rope to haul it to an anchor point nearer the coastline. The use of the hemp rope could signify that a shore expedition was made. The terms 'haul away' and 'tie up' and 'anchor' and 'harbor' are all evoked if you consider the lives of the captain and his crew depended on the possession of hemp ropes for their navigation and expeditions.
ReplyDeleteScott what is the significance of the four dots circling the cross? The top one resembles a triangle in your picture. I get the tobacco leave, the moon, and feather.
ReplyDeleteBryan,
DeleteI suspect they are acknowledging the four cardinal direction points. They were pretty much round in shape and the triangular look appears to be due to shadow play off the uneven surface of the rock.
I don't think your idea of the "ropes" is going to work for several reasons. The first would be "rocks". Wooden ships and rocks don't get along to well with the "rocks" winning all the time. The second reason is the rise and fall of the tide in that area. They are very substantial. The ship would run the risk of "grounding out" in a rock bed (not good). The third reason are the mooring lines. You are going to need at least two minimum with the ideal being three line (tidal drift). The fourth reason is the "gang plank". You would be (un)loading supplies from the water (this is why they use docks and jetties). The last reason is the type of ship they used (cogs). They had very high sides used in the defense of the ship. And yes, the medievalist sailors did use "cranes".....
ReplyDeleteTo move that much poundage (tonnage) in barrels (water, beer, wine, etc), they would have used casks (wooden and very heavy).
https://www.google.com/search?q=medieval+shipping+cranes&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=9F-d2DQxBSxZmM%253A%252CCoARuGKvSEUw0M%252C_&usg=__QIBpswmY1AWkj2Nlmb7RHL6LmTg%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9iO6xkJvXAhUB4WMKHc3ZBCAQ9QEILDAB#imgdii=fnCbioXWpaDEjM:&imgrc=9F-d2DQxBSxZmM:
https://www.google.com/search?q=medieval+shipping+cranes&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=9F-d2DQxBSxZmM%253A%252CCoARuGKvSEUw0M%252C_&usg=__QIBpswmY1AWkj2Nlmb7RHL6LmTg%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi9iO6xkJvXAhUB4WMKHc3ZBCAQ9QEILDAB#imgrc=9F-d2DQxBSxZmM:
Happy Halloween/Samhain Scott,
ReplyDeleteI'm not real familiar with the Tucson Lead Artifacts. I do remember seeing the double cross on one of them. I also remember seeing the Crescent. Were there any examples of a double cross and Crescent together?
When I said that I'd never seen the double cross and Crescent together before, I may have been mistaken. I recall seeing them separately in that collection.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteYes, there is one artifact that has a crescent and two compass and square symbols on the ends of the crescent. They are pictured on page 146 of my "Akhenaten to the Founding Fathers" book.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteYou're right. This is a "BIG DEAL".
I'm on my way to work, and don't have time to potentially ramble, or steal anyone's Thunder. Let's just say for now, a major picture is complete in my mind. Although, it all rests upon the caliche.
If I have permission to speculate freely? I will do so after work.
Thank you! You haven't just kindled my light you've stoked it with hurricane force winds.
Anthony Warren
Scott,
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started talking to Alan several years ago, we discussed how the
Superman Symbol kept popping up. If I remember correctly, Alan and Mr. Christopher Knight both noticed symbol appearing within their researches. Now I see why.
Superman's birth name Kal-El/Calal(us)
The S on Superman's chest symbol was originally a snake
Superman's cape was originally covered with snakes in the form of an S. This cape was given to him by his Earth parents. This cape came from the Kent family, who were a line of snake priests.
I'm thinking a couple of dudes from New York, knew something when they created this character.
There are several other points to bolster this idea however, I'm running out of time and I don't want to ramble.
Anthony Warren
Scott,
ReplyDeleteThe Tucson lead artifact with two examples of the two overlapping compasses... has anyone ever noticed it looks like a combination of Thor's hammer and the Christian cross?
I'm pretty sure, I know where these people hid their sacred texts. A cave system in (Kent)ucky. Fort Knox is built over it. I don't think anyone is getting access to check out the caves. That's if there's anything left that hasn't been incorporated into the structure itself.
The existence of these people fills in so many holes. Starting with the collapse of the Mayan hierarchy around 800 A.D. Teaching folks to sacrifice fruit instead of people. I think these people were fighting the RCC on one side and the remnants of the Baal priesthood on the other.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteI've never heard that before, and I'm sure what to think about ancient texts associated with the artifacts. In fact, I would argue the artifacts ARE sacred texts as they are covered with Latin script.
Easy and correct answer to the main question is "No". Easy and correct answer to the idea that things ARE sacred texts as they are covered with Latin script is also "No".
ReplyDeleteFeeman Ong
Feeman,
DeleteIt’s a little too easy to just say “No” my friend. Any opinion without factual support is meaningless. So, if you don’t have any evidence or refuse to share it, then, “No.”
"In fact, I would argue the artifacts ARE sacred texts as they are covered with Latin script."
DeleteI'm trying really hard to see the factual support here. Aren't these the artifacts that had text from a contemporaneous Latin textbook?
And even if not, wouldn't sacredness depend on what the Latin text said? It sounds like you don't have evidence or refuse to share it.
Feeman Ong
So you find the word "de" carved on a rock that no independent observer has seen carvings on before 2009, and believe that it matches Ponce de Leon's signature though it curves differently in another direction. And this without comparing it to prior rock carvings by Juan himself, if any. So Ponce de Leon traveled from what is now Florida to Nova Scotia and basically only left "of" as a record of his achievement.
DeleteDo I have your story correct?
Anonymous,
DeleteFirst, you are making assertions about what you think I think in an attempt to troll. Please refrain from that. Second, all I’ve done is make a comparison between the “de” portion of De Leon’s signature and one of the symbols of the Overton carving. There may be a connection, there may not be.
If you want to know what I think, then ask me. Don’t overthink it and don’t assume.
Feeman,
DeleteThat was a claim made by skeptics frantic to paint the artifacts as a hoax. The text cannot be modern Latin since the provenance of the artifacts is pristine; therefore they are genuine.
Sacredness is something that lies in the hearts and minds of the people who created the artifacts. All we can do is interpret the text, the symbols and shapes of the artifacts most likely left as offerings. This is evidenced by the fact the lead swords would never be used in battle which was just one of the ridiculous claims made by skeptics. If they were left as offerings then the most logical assumption is they were indeed sacred objects that includes the text.
That is what you call evidence based on the known facts and logic.
"If you want to know what I think, then ask me. Don’t overthink it and don’t assume."
DeleteI did ask you if what I put forth was an accurate restatement of your points made for this blog entry. I tried to make it appear as less silly as I could, though that was very difficult given what you presented.
So am I to take it that you indeed do not believe Ponce de Leon carved the Overton Stone and are just having fun here? Or do you seriously believe it to be a legitimate historical question given the evidence you presented?
Anonymous,
DeleteI absolutely think it is a serious question to be looked at. However, I don’t think we will get a definitive answer due to the lack of a written record of his ever being in Nova Scotia. That, of course, doesn’t mean he could not have been there as he was known to take "secret" trips. Given the interesting carved symbol that looks very similar to the “de” symbol in examples of his signature it’s a very valid question to ask.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteFrom the top nob of the staff to the crescent, appears to be Thor's hammer. With the exception of the oval shape. From the nob bearing the crown on down is the Christian cross. I've never seen Thor's hammer mixed with the Christian cross before. I have seen Thor's hammer mixed with two overlapping compasses, or more accurately compass and square. There was a bar going from the compass through to the square. Making the bar and square Thor's hammer. I can't rule out a pendulum though.
In regards to sacred texts, I agree, however, I was thinking along the lines of scrolls. Perhaps alternate Gospels or unedited versions.
I've come to the conclusion, there have been several waves of Baal priests. Along with several attempts to subvert them. There's also been at least one Buddhist monk.
Anthony Warren
Scott,
ReplyDeleteThe "dinosaur" as modern eyes have interpreted, appears to be just like a Sphinx, or a Griffin. I'm thinking it's a combination of astronomical signs. The Elephant being one. What is now the United States was once dotted Elephant mounds. I should mention too, Serpent Mound for trolls not paying attention. Those familiar with the various combinations of the Lion, Eagle, Ox/Bull, and Man should know where I'm going with this.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of other possibilities as to what that creature could be having been carved so long ago. Something related to astronomy makes a lot of sense. I still like the idea it could be a lizard due to its forked tongue, but it could certainly be something else.
Skeptics are completely dishonest insisting it has to be a dinosaur and therefore must be modern without bothering to even consider other more plausible possibilities. These claims also fly in the face of the voluminous hard scientific facts related to geology and archaeology which is the real fraud in this discussion.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI heard that you believe in a New World order. As a scientist that finds the answers based on logic and evidence, what makes you believe in such a crazy conspiracy theory? The New World Order has no evidence of it existing, maybe you mean something else by new world order?
Joel
Joel,
DeleteThe existence of a New World Order, whatever that might be, is a personal opinion that has nothing to do with logic or science. One either exists or it doesn’t. I have no knowledge of the existence of such an order nor do I care.
In answer to the title question of your blog post, "Did Juan Ponce de Leon Carve the Overton Stone?"....
ReplyDeleteNo.
Grimmy,
DeleteBoy, that was really helpful... Your comment is worthless without support.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI think your work on the Kensington Rune stone was well done in terms of the geology and forensic work, along with actually going out and finding the runes and everything on the rune stone in Gotland based on logic, because since the rune stone was authentic, everything had to exist. I appreciate you going out into the field instead of staying behind your desk for finding these runes in question. I agree that the only people on Gotland capable of carving an inscription like that would have been the Cistercians, because only the clergy would be educated enough to do something like that in the Middle Ages, because the common people and everyone else weren't educated in the Middle Ages. But I'm skeptical of how you reached the conclusion that the rune stone meant the Knights Templar came to America and carved it. Why couldn't a group of Cistercians from Gotland come by themselves to Minnesota and carve it? I realize a Cistercian founded the Knights Templar and wrote their charter, but how did you go from figuring out the Cistericans on Gotland were the only ones who could have carved the KRS to the Knights Templar came to Kensington to protect the Holy Bloodline? Doesn't really add up and it seems like kind of a stretch. I think a more reasonable theory based on the evidence you found in that investigation would be a group of Cistercians from Gotland came to Kennsington in 1362 and left behind the KRS. I don't know how you jumped to the conclusion that the Knights Templar bloodline descendants were the ones who came to Kensington along with a Cistercian monk to protect the bloodline based on your geological work and work in Sweden. Can you explain?
Jamal
Jamal,
DeleteThe Cistercians were directly connected to the Knights Templar who were Cistercians. The head of the Cistercians, Bernard de Clairvaux, wrote the charter for the Templar order who became official by a Papal Bull in January of 1129, at the Council of Troyes. The Cistercians were not sailors, they were farmers, builders, and religious clergy, their motto was “Prayer and Work.”
The Templars were master sailors and had the finest sailing fleet in the world at the time of the putdown in 1307. They had every reason to seek out a new home in North America; a place they had been visiting for nearly 200 years prior. The Kensington party came to North America around 1360 and established a settlement in the heartland. Multiple initiated Cistercian monks traveled with the party of Templars who carved the KRS land claim as the first tangible stake in the ground.
The baton was then passed to their ideological brethren, the Freemasons, who finished the job by creating the sanctuary where people could live free from tyranny and oppression of the monarchs of Europe and the Roman Catholic Church. Those Freemasons are now called the “Founding Fathers” and that sanctuary is now called the “United States of America.”
Pretty straightforward actually.
Hello Scott. I love the work you do. I have especially enjoyed your television work. Is anything in the works, another miniseries or regular series? Sadly what used to be H2 is now full of unwatchable programming. Keep up the good work. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
DeleteThere is something in the works and I will let everyone know once if and when it's appropriate to announce. Stay tuned.
Scott,
ReplyDeleteI've been following a familial astronomer priesthood which has been given many names by various authors. I've followed these people from where I believe they rebegan on through to modern times. These families have existed within every society, culture, country, and landmass. Their names, and symbolism have changed but, a couple of things stay the same. First, and most importantly they are a family. Second, the meanings behind their morphing symbolism is astronomy. More often than not answer can be found in the stars.
I'm seeing all kinds of connections.
Anthony Warren
Scott,
ReplyDeleteHave you been able to determine when 2 overlapped compasses became a compass and square?
Have you ever placed the 2 overlapped compasses over Orion lying on his/her side? The "belt" takes the place of the "G" and completes the symbolism quite well. With this in mind, I think the "G" stands for Geb and not Gaia. This also corresponds to the oldest symbolism I've come across regarding Orion's belt. I'll stop there. I realize you've got young readers and some adult trolls, who are not yet familiar with female anatomy.
Anthony Warren
Any Wampum Treaties, are always Sealed through Marriage and the subsequent Heir to represent Both Parties thereto, which Heir or Heirs, would then be incorporated into the overall People... I would also like to Point Out, that the "Maltese Cross" was accepted by His Royal Majesty, as the Representation of the Water Bird aka Thunder Bird aka Phoenix. Which is his Signet Seal, used upon documents between the Royal Lines and Colonists. Then the Wampum Treaty aka Covenant Belts would be Exchanged; such as the one currently at the feet of Our Lady of Chartres.
ReplyDeleteDavid,
DeleteThank you for sharing this knowledge to those who read this blog. Your opinion is consistent with my own, and others, who believe these carvings represent a treaty. Is there anything you see that indicates when this treaty may have taken place?
Scott,
ReplyDeleteHave you considered the possibility that this is actually a Celtic cross and the writing is actually Celtic script?
The S on the right is tilted and slightly spaced out as it would typically be done by Celtic scribes. The letters on the left could be “chucu” or “dede” possibly.
As you pointed out, de Leon’s signature is slightly different, so it had me thinking about alternatives.
Very interesting find!
Jay,
DeleteI have not considered that possibility which is very interesting. As far as I'm concerned anything is possible, but I'm not an expert on Celtic script. I still think it is most likely the Portuguese or Scottish Templars that made the cross, but it's hardly a closed case.
I would lean towards Scottish myself if I had to choose. Scottish Gaelic is pretty similar in appearance to Celtic.
DeleteAlso, the cross isn’t uniform. It rises a bit at the top. That would cast doubt on the Celtic origin, although it is great evidence for the Scottish Templars’ involvement.
Jay,
DeleteIf I had to bet I would also go with Scottish Templars as we are pretty certain Earl Henry Sinclair was in Nova Scotia in 1398 or thereabouts. Whether this is connected to him or his party is unclear. I'm hoping to do some weathering studies in the future at this site that might shed additional light.
Info on the dating would be immensely valuable.
DeleteThe intricacy and detail of the leaf is striking. Have you seen this before anywhere? The difference leads me to believe the two sections were carved by different people, but at the same time.
Jay,
DeleteI haven't seen a leaf carving with that much detail or size before. The carvings are also fairly deep; up to 0.5" or so in some places. The varying depths of the carvings is why some areas are darker than lighter colored weathered areas. The weathering rind on the surface of the stone, which appears to be a phylite, is white and one has to be careful not to be confused by the lighter color in the carved grooves. They appear to show age, but they could also be shallow areas that have not gone beyond the weathering that was already there.
We really have to be careful when studying the weathering characteristics of this one.
Absolutely,
DeleteIn my last message I implied that they were written at the same time. Even though this is indeed what I said, I didn't mean that. Sorry!
They seem to be written by different people, even IF they are found to be carved at the same time.
Whoever it was, this wasn't a rush job. Half inch deep - I really didn't expect you to say that.
The 06 and 07 have me puzzled, though.
Jay,
DeleteNo worries, I agree it wasn't a rush job. Whoever the carver(s) was definitely took their time to do a careful job. To me, this speaks to the importance of the carvings and along with their strategic location on a prominent bedrock outcrop next to the ocean, suggests some type of treaty/agreement between a party most likely from Europe (Scottish Templars?) and the indigenous people.
There’s an interesting potential connection between the Mi’kmaq and Scottish Templars.
DeleteMi’kmaq hieroglyphics appear to be strongly influenced by Celtic/Gaelic script and Christian symbols. Their traditional symbols and the ones they imported from Europe are so obviously different, you’d think someone was trying to play a joke on you.
The “fish” symbol is a commonly used glyph by them. The double fish like you see in this rock carving is also part of their writing system, just as it is part of Celtic script.
Their writing, to my eye, appears to be a form of cursive (or script) often times, just like Arabic with its initial, medial, and final forms. I believe this is the reason for the left facing hook on the right of the double fish symbol. It seems to be acting as a terminator.
That said, de Leon’s signature is actually spot on with Mi’kmaq writing and may not be that far off from the carving as I first thought. I wonder who could have influenced whom?
The Angled S we see is not part of their writing system as far as I can tell, but that jibes with my theory that the left symbol is that of the Mi’kmaq language, representing their group, and the S is Scottish Gaelic script, representing the Templars or at least some Scots that we’re travelling with them.
Really interesting topic. I’m glad you posted this.
I like the idea of cursive letters. I'd actually considered that idea myself. I'm seeing two cursive j's. Likely standing for June and July. The 2 months most important for the constellation of Leo. The "S" is most likely the ecliptic. Regulus and its position near the ecliptic is somehow important for calculating longitude.
DeleteI'm leaning towards the Crescent being Venus. The double cross could be two different bodies crossing the ecliptic. I've heard
Nibiru\Marduk/Thor/Zeus/Jupiter called "planet of the crossing". Maybe...Jupiter has something to do with this. Traveling my path, I've come across many hints of Jupiter. From the "Sons of God" being a mistranslation of "Sons of Thor" all the way through the Dome of the Rock being a remodeled Temple of Jupiter built by the Romans. Even a few Church windows bearing a geometric representation of the orbit of Jupiter. I've got the puzzle pieces, they're just still in a Picasso form.
Anything of import was done with the Stars in mind. Planetary positions, conjunctions and alignments. Maybe...Just maybe...I can't believe I'm saying this...There is a Star Date encoded within this Treaty.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteIf I’m hearing you right, you believe there’s a direct connection between the artistic carving and the more enigmatic letters and numbers?
Do you have any thoughts about why so much time, effort, and attention to detail was spent on one and not the other?
That’s what I’ve been pondering on lately. Of course, the dating would be tremendously valuable.
Scott,
DeleteDo you see more glyphs on the signature rock? I do, but it’s hard to tell the difference between light/shadow and genuine grooves.
Jay,
DeleteI didn't not see anything else that looked man made on the outcrop. I looked around the entire area, but nothing else was there. The rock has a very rough and irregular surface that can give the impression more is there, but isn't.
Jay,
DeleteI always look for the astronomical meaning of symbols. With this Treaty\alliance\marriage, I'm seeing the possibility of two celestial objects coming together in the constellation of Leo. Leo is said to be the "House of God". This should be a dateable event. I've stated previously the importance of Leo, its relationship to the ecliptic, and the months most important to it. The 06 and 07 could be June and July, or possibly a month and year/year and month. Either way, my alleged event happened in a summer month.
Thanks for the tip on intermediate scripts.
Anthony Warren
Anthony,
DeleteAs 06 07 still seems like an odd way to represent months or even any kind of date, I’d want to consider other possibilities like “o 6 à 7” or “o 6 ó 7”
The second “0” does seem to have an odd splotch where it looks like a diacritic may have been and the details have worn away.
There is a language in Northwest Portugal called Galician which is influenced by both Celtic and Portuguese. I probably don’t need to point out the Templar connection here! In that language this would mean “6 to 7”.
Also, since this is shorthand and the article “o” appears here, I would translate that as “The sixth to the seventh.” They may be months, depending on whether or not they abbreviated them in that manner at that time.
It still looks more like “o 6 ó 7” to me, so I’m going to dig more into the changes which have happened in these languages over time and see if I can make more sense of it or come up with more ideas.
Jay,
DeleteThe 06 07 is difficult to interpret. They look too modern. I've stuck with the months due to an apparent ecliptic connection with "S" symbol. I am convinced there is an astronomy connection with all of these symbols. As above, So below. If we can determine what was happening in the sky, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out what they were mirroring on the ground.
I'm not familiar with the Galician language. I will look into it further. Currently been doing some experiments with angles of light. All of the transatlantic voyages began on January 17th. Which happens to coincide with a sacred angle of the Sun as it rises above Jerusalem on that day.
Anthony Warren
Scott,
DeleteI wanted to get your opinion on this. I’m also responding to Anthony, but you’ve been here first hand and that’s something more valuable than any picture.
I’m leaning towards the more “modern” carvings as a pecking out, sort of a tracing, of what was originally a painted set of symbols, like a pictograph.
This could explain the apparent crudeness of the glyphs. This person may have just been trying to preserve a fading message, perhaps even one unintelligible at the time. I would also suspect they’re at least decades older than the more intricate and beautiful carving above.
I’ve seen “modern graffiti” carvings at Mushroom Rock State Park in Kansas. Even as far back as 100 years ago, no one bothered to etch enigmatic things like this. You know, “M+J Forever” kind of messages are rampant. The kind of messages we would immediately understand.
The mushroom rock carvings are in pure sandstone. On the other hand, the schist in Nova Scotia would be a slightly more fertile ground for such graffiti because of its softness (correct me if I’m wrong!) Why then would the message be so short and elusive?
Will you be able to return soon to date the carvings, even if it’s just a comparative dating?
Jay
Scott you do have exciting comments on your blog. this was interesting, i read every comment. thanks scott
ReplyDeleteLynette,
DeleteThis blog does have some interesting and lively posts. Hopefully, you learned something and were entertained in the process. Thanks for visiting and come back soon.