Sunday, December 7, 2014

Was there really a Custer Treasure?

 

Old friends from their days working together at WCCO television in Minneapolis, former long-time anchorman Don Shelby, and Director of the Custer episode, Raul Cadena, pose for a photo.  Raul also played the cigarette smoking thief in the reenactment at Two Moons monument. 


Two local native actors who played roles in the massacre reenactment pose for a photo with Scott.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't either of these guys who "killed" me during the battle.



In a "period" looking photo, Sargent John Slatton and Scott pose for photo on their horses.



Ross Mitchell and John Slatton led me and my horse "Trinity" across a ridge at the Little Bighorn battlefield in the late afternoon of a gorgeous late June day. 



I'd like to start by saying this episode was the most fun I've had on a shoot to date.  Not only did I get to participate and get "killed" in the exciting Little Bighorn massacre reenactment, but I was also allowed to ride over the entire battlefield on horseback for three hours discussing various tactical maneuvers that likely happened that day with men who served in our nation's military who knew what they were talking about.  In fact, all of the cavalry soldiers who appeared in the show are currently enlisted in various branches of the military or are veterans who served our country.  They were all extremely knowledgeable, skilled soldiers who knew how to ride, as well as helpful and friendly to the host of the show (me) who didn't have a clue what he was doing most of the time.  It's because of people like these guys who served and continue to serve in the military with honor and distinction that allows guys like me to run around playing Indiana Jones.  We all have to keep that in mind and be grateful for the freedom we enjoy.  I certainly am.

One thing became abundantly clear to me during my conversations with the cavalry guys that was not made clear in the show, and that was there was no Custer "treasure" in the form of gold and/or silver.  The pay wagon was with Reno who pulled back and wasn't part of the Little Bighorn battle.  Therefore, the only thing that could have been salvaged from the dead soldiers by the natives was personal items and paper currency.  However, the natives considered currency to be "Picture paper" and thus was meaningless to them.  I spoke to some of the native actors in the reenactment who were direct descendants of those who fought in the battle with Custer and they said the paper money taken from the dead soldiers, "Was given to the children who threw it up into the air and watched it blow away in the wind."  Besides, what would the natives do with paper money?  Walk into a grocery store and spend it?  Hardly.

So that begs the question, if there wasn't a Custer treasure, what was the treasure that Two Moons 'treasure map' reportedly led to?  What makes sense to me is there was a lot of gold miners prospecting in Montana at that time who were frequently moving across the state.  No doubt many of them were robbed of their gold by natives who at some point, realized it had value to the White Man.  I suspect that is what comprises Two Moons treasure since it couldn't realistically be anything tied to Custer.  Unfortunately, since the treasure map was stolen around 1960, we likely will never know what Two Moon's treasure actually was.  As we said in the show, it was either found half a century ago by whoever stole the map, or it is still out there. 

UPDATE: 12-9-14

Today I received a note from one of our guests on the show, David Meyer, that he had received a rash of emails from people chastising him for being involved in a "fake" episode.  It turns out there are non-serious debunkers who consistently take anything they can from our shows, and apparently this blog, and twist it out of proportion to create controversy and drive people to their own blogs.  I've said it many times before that if debunkers were really serious about the subject matter that appears on our show, they'd ask me about it directly instead of creating deliberate fabrications to drive people to their sites.
 

The issue appears to be my statement about a pay wagon, possibly filled with gold and silver, not being at the battle to have been recovered by the natives.  David said people were arguing that a pay wagon wasn't with Reno or anywhere near the battlefield.  I could very well be wrong about Reno having a pay wagon at all since I was going on what I recalled from my conversations.  I don't remember exactly.  In any case, whether Reno had a pay wagon or not is secondary to the point that there was no pay wagon with Custer.  Therefore, there couldn't have been a substantial hoard of gold and silver that could qualify as a "treasure."
 
I came to my own conclusion as we were filming there was no significant treasure beyond personal items, weapons, and paper money which would have been useless to the natives.  There was nothing preconceived about this treasure before filming the episode as apparently has been suggested.  My opinions were reached after talking with the cavalry personnel and the descendants of the Cheyenne who fought in the original battle while I was there.  

Did we play up my involvement in the reenactment to create drama?  Of course, but immersing myself into the action helped me better understand and appreciate what happened that day and put additional context on the questions we were investigating.  Nothing was faked, other than our deaths as member of the ill-fated members of Custer's troops.  My advice to anyone with a question about any of our episodes is to ask me directly on this blog.
 
ADDITIONAL UPDATE 12-10-14 
I received two emails from people who shared very interesting memories that are germane to our "Custer Treasure" episode.  I have no reason to suspect these people are not telling the truth.  While these revelations are not 100% conclusive, as far as I'm concerned all my questions are answered with regard to what the natives did with the personal items and weapons taken by the women after the battle, and as to what happened to two Moons treasure.  My thanks go out both people who contacted me for sharing their stories.
 
"Hello Scott,
 
I watched your episode last night on the "Custer Blood Treasure" with great interest. I knew W. P. Moncure very well !!

W.P. Moncure, Walker Peyton Moncure, was my paternal grandmother's uncle. She raised me from 6 months until I went away to nursing school at 17. "Moncure" as we called him, was married to Anna Otoupalik in 1903 in Butte, MT. Her sister, Venus Otoupalik-Nedved, was my grandmother's mother. They all lived in Butte, MT where my grandmother was born in 1892. She died in 1968 and Moncure died in 1964. He was repairing his roof in Calabasas at age 88, fell of the roof, broke his hip, and died as a result of complications. He was a very "wiry" little man. And boy, could he tell the stories !! He was born in 1877 in Maryland and came from a prominent family in Virginia. In fact, his father was a doctor to General Robert E. Lee.

Moncure lived in Calabasas, CA. We lived in Portland, OR, as I still do. I am a very young 71 years old. Every year he went to the Yellowstone to stay the summer until the year before he died.. On his way he would come to our house and stay 5-7 days with us. Then on his way back to CA he would come to stay with us again for another week. He always brought me a one pound box of See's chocolates from CA every year.

He owned the Indian Trading Post in Busby, MT for many years. My grandfather that raised me worked for him there and was also the Postmaster there for 15 years on the Northern Cheyenne Reservation. Then my grandparents went over to the Crow Reservation and were there for 2 years before finally coming to Portland in 1928. My grandfather was the Postmaster there, and owned the store there at Crow Agency.

Of course we always knew about the Two Moons Monument that he erected. He would talk about it at times. He said he erected it for the benefit of the Cheyenne and that the "treasure" would one day greatly benefit the future tribe. He and Two Moons WERE good friends. My grandparents knew Two Moons, also, since they were right there, also. My grandmother was a wonderful artist and we had the huge oil painting of Two Moons she had painted before he died. Full headdress and all. We knew what all was contained in the monument. But he would not tell where the "treasure" was buried. So yes, it was not a myth !!!  It was REAL !!!

I have magazine articles and newspaper articles about it. One very long news article you should have known about is this. In 1957 Moncure turned over the care, responsibility, and permanent custody of the monument and all its contents to the Northern Cheyenne Indian Tribe committee. This group consisted of 9 members who Moncure helped pick. And shortly after this, the monument was "broken" into and the manila envelope was gone.

Now, after the tribe had control over the monument, do you really think they were going to leave that map there for some white man to get their hands on?  After this Moncure would always say, "No one has to worry about the wrong people getting possession of what belongs to the Indians."  The opening that was supposed to take place in 1976, 100 years after Custer's Last Stand", NOT 1986, was just done earlier because of the interest that had developed after Kathryn Wright's article. 
Also, Moncure and his wife, Anna, bought 1100 acres of land between 1915 to 1936 in the area and donated all the land to the Cheyenne.

The money paid to the massacred soldiers was not gold and silver coins. It was in the form of gold and silver treasury notes. Paper !  So all those gold coins in the rusty cans buried and found by that couple have nothing to do with the "Custer treasure".

I am going to make copies of the articles and some photos of he and Anna. I am going to send all of it to you at your company, American Petrographic Services in St. Paul, MN. I hope you read all the articles and also take all that I have told you in truth seriously. I have no reasons to lead you on about this matter. There is no "treasure" to be pursued and found. You might want to pass this information on to the man in the coin store and the other young guy on the show before you went to Montana."

Here is the second message that's also listed below:

"I remember years ago, when my grandfather was alive, he spoke about a time when his grandfather's grandfather was in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. After the battle, Sitting Bull and his people went north towards Canada, Crazy Horse and his people went south. This band came to The Stronghold, located in the Badlands of South Dakota - there Crazy Horse told his people to gather together all that they had taken from the battle field. After gathering all the items, he divided the items onto four buffalo hides and told four of his best warriors to ride in each direction (east, south, west and north), a day's ride and bury the items. My grandfather was told that there were numerous items which included coins, rifles, sabers, clothing, buttons and anything the women had found. This is a story that very few people know about. Those that did know have since passed on. I consider myself lucky to hear stories like the ones my grandfather used to tell. I thought this might be of interest to you after I watched the episode of the battle. I also find your shows very interesting. Thank you."


38 comments:

  1. maybe there never was a treasure map. That was just speculation.

    I am curious, if you knew that there was no payroll "treasure" why did you air the episode? Was it for the money.

    You say that the pay wagon was with Reno and that Reno pulled back. Reno did indeed pull back but he did not have a wagon. How can you state that Reno was not part of the battle? He initiated the battle and his troops fired the last shots of the battle.

    If you look at a terrain map of the area where Reno's command pulled back across the river and established a position in the hills above you would realize that no horse drawn wagon was going to make that trip. That means that the wagon, if it had existed, would have been left behind at the edge of the village.

    All references I have read state that Custer did not take any wagons on his mission.

    The Indians could have taken paper money to the sutler on the reservation and that was the same as a grocery store.

    The question is - WHY would Reno/Custer take a payroll with them on this mission? The troopers would have had no place to spend it.

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    1. Custer was on a fast recon and did not want to be hindered by a wagon he turned down a field piece so he could move fast, and takes a purser and pay wagon that will just be in his way, no way, first why the need of money? Custer was ordered to recon the and find the encampment and send word back to the main body to form an attack on the Sue and Cheyenne, but as we know he wanted all the glory and sent a note back to "bring packs" he had already gave Reno his orders to attack from below. This would not even be an issue if he obeyed orders and waited for the main body but Custer liked it alone at the top of the mountain most Kings do. Two Moons and the Indian agent may have cooked the whole thing up. How come the Army has never said a word about the loss of the troopers pay?

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  2. Unknown,

    You take the time to write a name, but not your name? What's the point?

    There were pictures taken of the envelope inside the monument that appeared in the 1957 newspaper article. That envelope reportedly contained a map to treasure that Two Moons had accumulated. I'm inclined to believe there was a treasure map inside the envelope.

    I didn't know about the pay wagon until two days into filming. I was told by the men in the cavalry that there was a pay wagon with the men, but that it was left behind.

    I will defer to what the natives said about the paper money. You are the one who is speculating in the face of testimony to the contrary.

    I asked the same questions about payroll and was told the men were paid after they left the fort so they couldn't spend it on booze and women. Makes sense to me.

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  3. Mr Wolter I have a book you should read might give you more information from the native american side. The book is Custer's Fall The Native American Side of the Story. By David Humphreys Miller

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  4. Sounds like a good one. I was able to get the Native American perspective from some of the descendants of those who were there. However, I suspect this book has comments from earlier descendants or perhaps some of the actual participants. I'll have to add that book to the list!

    Thanks.

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    1. Hi Scott I watch every episode. I don't know what Two Moons considered a treasure but I think its just what the soldiers had on them and here is why. General Gibbon and General Terry had a large boat called the Far West which was a command center which was located at the mouth of the Rosebud river which is now the city of Rosebud Montana. The Far West came directly from Fort Abraham Lincoln and the payroll probably would have been on that boat. There was many soldiers that did not fight in the battle of the little big horn but were at the Rosebud camp. Secondly the Testimony of General Gibbons and Terry say Custers men left all wagons at the Rosebud camp and only brought 15 days of supplies on the backs of pack mules and horses. Custer even refused to take Gatlin guns which would have been put on wagons and at least one or two wagons of ammunition for every gun.If he did not want that to weight him down I don't think that he would have wanted a payroll wagon weighting him down.

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    2. Greg,

      You are echoing my point that there really couldn't have been any meaningful "treasure" after Custer's defeat other than personal items and paper money that would have been essentially worthless to the natives. It's interesting how these legends take off and become "truth" after being retold over a long enough time.

      I think Two Moons probably did have a treasure, likely gold and silver robbed from miners over a period of time, that he wanted to leave to his people. It's too bad it was stolen for two reasons. First, it would have been a great news story in 1985 about this famous Native American chief helping his people long after his death. Second, I'd like to know exactly what that treasure was!

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    3. As far as Moncure goes, we also had a hard time finding out much about him.

      As far as the Templar's go; stay tuned for our final episodes of the season. You'll get a lot more than you expected I'm sure!

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  5. Wonderful episode! Once again, I think the main point being portrayed is that what we have been taught about history is not always correct. I think you found the true "Lost Treasure" while making this episode. You found the "Truth". And what in all the world is more valuable than the truth?
    Thank you, once again, Scott for another entertaining episode!

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    1. Thanks Jenn,

      I feel like we were able to answer some of my questions, but I still have a few that have to do with Two Moons, his map, and whatever that "treasure" might have been that he might have had.

      Too bad that map was stolen.

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  6. Very entertaining show. I love Montana, in the summer, and have been to the battlefield several times. My sister lives near there and I spent 10-12 weeks there working for the state. There are a lot of mini-mysteries about the battle. The information on Two Moons was extremely intriguing and I confess I didn't know that piece of the story. I too had seen the cone shaped rock heap but never knew what it was. So it was entertaining, educational, and informative. Essentially, that's what all of the best shows on History/History2 do.[The "Greg' above isn't me.]

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  7. Greg,

    I was surprised to learn about Two Moons as well. As I told Jenn, too bad that map was stolen. I have heard from a viewer some information about what happened to the two Moons map that is very interesting. Unfortunately, the trail went cold many years ago now and I wouldn't know where to look at this point. the one thing I took away from the story is there is a good chance the treasure is till out there somewhere. Maybe someone will contact me and the trail will heat up!

    I know you are a different Greg, but it's great to have both of you here. I'm almost done with your book and will have some questions for you. I'll hit you privately when I get there.

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    1. OK, no problem. I'm working on the "next" one, in my "spare" time, whatever that means.

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  8. Scott,

    You may want to ask the family of Henry H. "Shorty Scout" Zietz, as they are in possession of Custer's Saber from the Battle. if was given to him in 1938 by Chief Red Cloud who rode into Denver,CO in full battle attire with a delegation of Sioux and Blackfoot Warriors they may be able to answer your questions.

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  9. Scott,

    You may want to ask the family of Henry H. "Shorty Scout" Zietz, they are in possession of Custer's Sabre from the battle. It was given to him by Chief Red Cloud in 1938 when he rode into Denver,CO in full battle attire with an accompaniment of Sioux and Blackfoot warriors.

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  10. Eric,

    That's interesting for sure and thanks for the tip! I might just do that if we decide to do a follow-up episode. Based on the response I'm getting here, on my Twitter account and via email, we might just do that!

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  11. Again, more questions then answers. I knew he had left the boat and headquarters with his detachment but I didn't know about the payroll, gatling guns, etc. The dragging of wagons of supplies would have been a major hindrance. Of course, there is the question of what the Native Americans would have done with the spoils (i.e, now they had two machine guns).

    This does not preclude the taking of the treasure by the officers of the "company". It would not have been unknown for army officers in the face of defeat, etc to disappear with the treasures and resurface at some main fort without anything (except an encrypted map, and a mysterious story). This is shades of the "lost Dutchman".

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  12. Scott's just having way to much fun here (smiles).

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  13. I remember years ago, when my grandfather was alive, he spoke about a time when his grandfather's grandfather was in the Battle of the Little Big Horn. After the battle, Sitting Bull and his people went north towards Canada, Crazy Horse and his people went south. This band came to The Stronghold, located in the Badlands of South Dakota - there Crazy Horse told his people to gather together all that they had taken from the battle field. After gathering all the items, he divided the items onto four buffalo hides and told four of his best warriors to ride in each direction (east, south, west and north), a day's ride and bury the items. My grandfather was told that there were numerous items which included coins, rifles, sabers, clothing, buttons and anything the women had found. This is a story that very few people know about. Those that did know have since passed on. I consider myself lucky to hear stories like the ones my grandfather used to tell. I thought this might be of interest to you after I watched the episode of the battle. I also find your shows very interesting. Thank you.

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    1. Anonymous. Like the story , you are very lucky to have these stories. Why did they call it a Stronghold and why wouldn't Crazy Horse give the rifles to his warrior's for future use. Thanks for the story.

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    2. Greg,

      I think the reason Crazy Horse buried the rifles was because if any of his braves were caught with a "Little Bighorn" weapon it would not have been good for his people. It would have incited white soldiers to avenge the battle to commit even worse atrocities than they already did.

      Crazy Horse made a was wise decision, but in the end it didn't matter.

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  14. This is a very story that rings true as I read it. Spreading the spoils across the four cardinal points sounds like exactly what a chief like Crazy Horse would do. If true, it means there are actually FOUR buffalo skin wrapped bundles of "Custer Treasure" still out there.

    Someday, a lucky person with a metal detector will likely find one of them!

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  15. How do I show you what I've found?

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  16. Probably best to contact me through email: swolter@amengtest.com

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  17. Hooked X at Oak Island. Satellite view of swamp shore to shore ?

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  18. Haven't heard anything about this? Is it carved on a rock or is it something else?

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  19. Hey Scott, just watched the Custer ep. It led me to look up some things since i am really interested in anything civil war related. I found this article from the last survivor of the battle. I hope you enjoy it.



    http://www.deadwoodmagazine.com/archivedsite/Archives/Windolph.htm

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  20. Speaking of lost treasure:

    http://www.newsadvance.com/go_dan_river/news/danville/treasure-hunters-say-they-have-found-new-clues-to-old/article_88da6806-0864-11e3-8431-0019bb30f31a.html
    These guys post on the treasure net forums under the cache section. They have found gold and silver coins from the period during their clues search, and there is a news video to support this.

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  21. I hope you stop by UMD someday so I can tell you in person how much I appreciate your show and your efforts to correct history-- or at least ask the questions everyone else is afraid to ask. I think you could be the Barry Marshall of your profession. BM was an outcast in his profession for his beliefs, mostly because it contradicted the status quo. Despite an overwhelming belief that he was proposing a ridiculous cause for a disease whose etiology was already well established, BM eventually proved everyone wrong. And then he got the Nobel Prize!
    Please don't get discouraged! I love to see the academics get irate -- as exhibited by the stalkers on your blog who quibble with you over everything, and brandish their credentials as proof that you couldn't possibly be correct if you disagree with them. Their insecurity is proof you are on the right track! I look forward to seeing how much history is changed, or I should say "corrected", by your pursuit of truth.

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  22. Hi Dan,

    I get up to UMD all the time since my daughter is in her junior year there. I have lots of friends "up north" and love it up there.

    While I get tired of the criticism sometimes, it never discourages me. I don't take people like Colavito and his minions seriously because they are not objective and don't really care about seeking the truth, they simply want to win the argument. I give him credit for venturing over to engage me a few days ago, but as I suspected it wasn't productive. He popped in to take a few shots and when we came back with legitimate facts he accused me of circular logic and fled.

    This is why I don't consider people like him to be serious. In any case, we will continue to forge ahead and bring forth the evidence and the history it supports whatever it might be. Although I won't be clearing a space on the shelf for a Nobel Prize, to hear praise from people like you is reward enough.

    Thanks for taking the time to post!

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  23. Scott,
    I love history and American history is one of my favorites. I like your show and the places that you visit because that is a history lesson of America. I just don't understand why every show leaves me feeling like it is all open-ended. The show always states that it is possible but since we were all not there anything could be "possible". I was hoping for more facts.

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  24. Unfortunately, not every investigation has a fulfilling conclusion. That's the way the real world works. However, we do reach many final conclusions and would argue we bring many new facts to the investigations on our show.

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  25. After seeing this episode, so many questions and stories ran through my head. A few questions would be, Why would the grave robber never go find the treasure? You'd think someone would want to take that treasure, and scream to the world they have it. Those coins that were found in California are linked to another story. The story of the two brothers who robbed a bank. When the brothers were found, the gold coins were no where to be found. I believe those coins are a mix of the Custer treasure AND the bank robbery. Do you honestly think that, the two could be linked together?

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    1. Catherine,

      If you read the updates above I think the answer to what happened to Two Moon's treasure is the Cheyenne took the map and collected whatever the treasure was and didn't say a word to anybody. That makes total sense to me.

      I do not think the California gold coins are related in any way to the Custer or Two Moon treasures; I think that's something different altogether that happened after the Little Big Horn.

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  26. Hello Scott,

    This is Anthony. According to research I did back in high school, Two Moons was 1 of 3 models used for the Buffalo Nickel. I'm apparently related to one of the other models through my great grandmother, named "Big Tree" I haven't found too many websites with reliable information on the subject. Very little jibes with the books from my high school library. According to one book, "he was arrested for the murder of Custer, escaped, and never recaptured". On-line he's often confused with an actor who used the stage name of "Chief John Big Tree". I've always gone by what I'd read in the library books. After reading a murky mess of conflicting stories and facts on-line, I'm not sure what to think. Keep in mind, I'm no spring chicken, and have been out of high school for almost 23 years.

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  27. Hi Scott, I am researching this story and would like to visit with the person (unnamed) who is a descendant of WP Moncure. Would you pass my info along?
    Tom S.
    tastagg@warmsprings.tv
    thanks!

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    1. T.S.

      Unfortunately, I don't have that contact information. sorry.

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